@Hawas1983 Im sorry but to say she was crying for Luz is a pretty weak argument. She along with everyone else was in tears when Flapjack died. Her eyes were focused on him and Hunter not Luz. Plus, she only looked at Luz when everyone knew that Hunter was fine and only after Luz walked away. To say she was crying over just Luz and not Flapjack is just utterly unfounded. Luz was no longer in any danger and was not seriously hurt unlike Flapjack.
Also, you have been given amble evidence that Amity sympathized with Hunter, just as she has done for her father and siblings and even Boscha during S3E2 despite the animosity she was feeling towards her.
Also, you haven’t answered the question that I and @RadicalPatMan have asked. How would Luz telling them about Hollow Mind give them an advantage over Belos and the Collector? How would denying this info to her friends put them at a disadvantage?
Perhaps you are right to say Luz should have opened up more, but that doesn’t make her selfish. By that standard Hunter is selfish too since he didn’t open up to anyone about being Belos’s genetic brother by way of cloning, or what Luz did. He could have kept his origins a secret and still reveal the truth about Luz too. Does that make him selfish and only thinking about himself? Does being a Grimwalker give them an tactical advantage against Belos and the Collector?
Hunter and Luz protected each other, and both never intended to hurt their friends. Maybe they should have opened up more, but their reasons for doing so are completely understandable given the trauma they went through.
Ultimately your argument about Amity being a sociopath is incorrect. Honestly, do you feel like Luz is a sociopath because many of the things you have said of her imply this.
@Hawas1983 Also, can we not have this argument again, about Vee and Luz’s friends in Gravesfield. Neither of us are going to convince the other of our respective opinions, as I have told you before
Im sorry but to say she was crying for Luz is a pretty weak argument. She along with everyone else was in tears when Flapjack died. Her eyes were focused on him and Hunter not Luz. Plus, she only looked at Luz when everyone knew that Hunter was fine and only after Luz walked away. To say she was crying over just Luz and not Flapjack is just utterly unfounded. Luz was no longer in any danger and was not seriously hurt unlike Flapjack.
It's not a weak argument at all. Neither of us knows what was on Amity's mind. Neither of us can know what was on Amity's mind. All we have to go on is what appeared on screen. She was looking in the direction of Luz and Hunter. Given what we know of Amity's behavior post Grom it's more likely that Amity was expressing her feelings about Luz, someone she has centered her life around, rather than Hunter, someone she barely knows and barely has any interactions with.
And just how do you know where Amity's eyes were focused? What we actually saw was Amity turning her head and tracking Luz as she walked away from Hunter. Hunter was dead and then resurrected yet Amity paid no attention to him whatsoever when Luz walked away from him. Everyone else was gathered around Hunter voicing their concern for his well-being and comforting him. Amity completely ignored him as she does anyone who isn't Luz. After this episode she hardly had anything to do with him. What part of Amity's canon behavior even remotely suggests Amity's empathy towards anyone other than Luz?
Also, you have been given amble evidence that Amity sympathized with Hunter, just as she has done for her father and siblings and even Boscha during S3E2 despite the animosity she was feeling towards her.
Sympathy and empathy are states of being not singular incidents. If you want to know what Amity looks like when she's sympathizing just watch her with Luz. Amity occasionally interacting with someone without trying to torture, humiliate of kill them is not an indication of empathy or sympathy. It is tolerance at best.
And once again you're claiming evidence you've yet to actually produce. All you've offered are your interpretations again. Evidence is a fact or collection of facts indicative of a single conclusion to the exclusion of all others. Present something that meets these criteria and we can talk. As it is Amity was at best displaying tolerance and not a deep emotional connection.
Also, you haven’t answered the question that I and @RadicalPatMan have asked. How would Luz telling them about Hollow Mind give them an advantage over Belos and the Collector? How would denying this info to her friends put them at a disadvantage?
I did answer the question. I just answered the question he asked. The issue isn't whether the information Luz had would have been of any use. The point was Luz didn't know whether the information she had would have been of use.
Anyone familiar with military or intelligence operations knows that the value of information lies in context. What may appear to be insignificant trivia could be the key to defeating an enemy when combined with other information you may already have. That's how espionage works.
Luz didn't know what was on the other side of the portal or how her information would relate to it. By denying it to Amity who was going to cross back over she could possibly be depriving Amity of crucial data that could save her life. Luz had no way of knowing either way so she would have given Amity and the others a better chance of survival by giving them all the information she had.
Perhaps you are right to say Luz should have opened up more, but that doesn’t make her selfish. By that standard Hunter is selfish too since he didn’t open up to anyone about being Belos’s genetic brother by way of cloning, or what Luz did. He could have kept his origins a secret and still reveal the truth about Luz too. Does that make him selfish and only thinking about himself? Does being a Grimwalker give them an tactical advantage against Belos and the Collector?
Luz was selfish because she prioritized a petty emotional need not feel hated over the survival of people she supposedly cared about. That's beyond selfish. Hunter's choice to conceal his grimwalker origins put no one in danger. It was a simple matter of privacy.
Hunter and Luz protected each other, and both never intended to hurt their friends. Maybe they should have opened up more, but their reasons for doing so are completely understandable given the trauma they went through.
Again. Intentions don't matter. What matters is what you actually did. That is ultimately what you will be judged on.
Ultimately your argument about Amity being a sociopath is incorrect. Honestly, do you feel like Luz is a sociopath because many of the things you have said of her imply this.
Amity suffers from Antisocial Personality Disorder (informally sociopathy) because she meets the diagnostic criteria set forth in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM),
A person in the real world displaying the behavior Amity did in the show would receive such a diagnosis. This isn't an argument. This isn't an opinion. This is a medical diagnosis comporting with established criteria for the condition. It's as much a medical fact as a diagnosis of cancer, chicken pox or Covid.
Amity tortured a child for 9 years and then almost killed her. She had to be forced to repair the damage she was responsible for and she never expressed any remorse or regret for nearly a decade of reprehensible behavior against a child.
Luz does not meet the criteria of ASPD but she does have issues that make her dangerous to the people around her. She released biting animals in a school which attacked students and faculty. She brought explosives to school with the intention of detonating them. Had she not been stopped and those explosives were used Luz would have been marched out of Gravesfield High in handcuffs provided she survived the explosion. Then there's all the crap she pulled in the Demon Realm.
Also, can we not have this argument again, about Vee and Luz’s friends in Gravesfield. Neither of us are going to convince the other of our respective opinions, as I have told you before
No. That you find it an inconvenient truth doesn't invalidate it as an argument. The fact remains that Vee's experience on earth completely invalidates the idea that Luz was a bullied outcast on earth which was the point of the episode. Your headcanon about Luz is not actual canon and Yesterday's Lie proves it.
@Hawas1983 first off I have warned you about your fowl language. Do it again and I will inform the administrators of your cursing and let them decide if you should be punished for this or not. I implore you to show self restraint.
Second, so she clasped her hands to her mouth and she’d tears when seeing a friend of her’s die to save another. She did the same thing everyone else did, crying as Flapjack gave his life for Hunter’s. I seriously don’t know how you can deny this at this point.
Also, Amity is not a sociopath as I and @RadicalPatMan and many other users have voiced time over. Amity was a bully, but she has shown empathy and love towards her friends, girlfriend, and family, yet you keep denying it out of hatred for her character and the writing of the show not fitting your more “realistic” tastes.
And barely knew him? She and Hunter spent months together in the Human Realm and you’re saying she hardly knows him. That is a very weak argument. Even if they aren’t best friends they are still friends and Amity cares about his wellbeing.
And again, it’s obvious I can’t convince you of this, but Amity did feel remorse. She admitted remorsefully that she was too weak to be Willow’s friend, called her her friend when standing up to her mother, tried to protect her and outright stated she wanted to stay her friend, and the two have fought side by side, and even hang out now again, with the two happily dancing and jumping together in joy in S3E2.
Also, I have pointed out numerous canon examples of Amity showing empathy towards others besides Luz, which you have never responded too.
@Hawas1983 forgive me for saying this, but once again you shown you have no regard for other’s opinions. I have tried numerous times to simply agree to disagree but you can’t let it go.
And Luz was bullied. She was made fun of for her “cheesy” attempts to impress past crushes (S2E8), had encounters with other teens that made her have panic attacks even through indirect human interaction (S2E10), and it was shown that even when her quirks were harmless adults in Gravesfield openingly insulted her in public and without care that her mom was right by them (S3E1)
One of the main themes of the Ole House is resisting conformity, which was the basis of the first episode with the Conformitorium and Warden Wrath. You have said you adhere to the canon, and the canon sets Luz up as someone who is misunderstood and doesn’t fit in who finds a place where she belongs.
I get you don’t like the way the series left, but all the hate on this wiki is unnecessary
And I implore you to show self-restraint and respect others views, especially when they try to make peace and simply agre to disagree.
@RadicalPatMan @Hawas1983 Once again, this has gotten grisly off topic from this page so I feel the best thing to do is simply get back on track. Hunter did not deserve to end up like this. I truly feel sorry for him
@Pythorback22 I apologize for this, and hope you feel we haven’t ruined your post
first off I have warned you about your fowl language. Do it again and I will inform the administrators of your cursing and let them decide if you should be punished for this or not. I implore you to show self restraint.
First, what foul language are you accusing me of using? I've used no foul language in this thread so far.
Second, who are you to dictate how other people express themselves here? So long as I do not violate the rules I am free to express my ideas as I see fit.
Second, so she clasped her hands to her mouth and she’d tears when seeing a friend of her’s die to save another. She did the same thing everyone else did, crying as Flapjack gave his life for Hunter’s. I seriously don’t know how you can deny this at this point.
How do you know that? How do you claim to know what's in Amity's mind? She was looking in the direction of both Hunter and Luz. What makes you so certain that it was Hunter she was looking at? That would be completely inconsistent with Amity's past behavior. She paid no attention to Hunter after Luz walked away even though he had just died. She gave 100% of her attention to Luz which is what she's been doing since Grom.
Also, Amity is not a sociopath as I and @RadicalPatMan and many other users have voiced time over. Amity was a bully, but she has shown empathy and love towards her friends, girlfriend, and family, yet you keep denying it out of hatred for her character and the writing of the show not fitting your more “realistic” tastes.
Amity is a sociopath (more correctly ASPD) according to the DSM which medically defines what a sociopath is. What you and others have voiced does not trump the definitive medical source on the issue.
Amity has yet to demonstrate empathy towards anybody in the show beyond Luz and her empathy for Luz is minimal at best as it is motivated by purely selfish reasons on Amity's part. Amity barely interacts with anybody but Luz after Grom. If Luz is around she takes up all of Amity's attention.
And barely knew him? She and Hunter spent months together in the Human Realm and you’re saying she hardly knows him. That is a very weak argument. Even if they aren’t best friends they are still friends and Amity cares about his wellbeing.
And just how much time did Amity and Hunter spend interacting with each other after Eclipse Lake? How much do they actually know about one another? How much time did they spend together acting like friends? How much time did Amity give up with Luz to spend with Hunter? In what episodes and in what scenes did we see Hunter and Amity actually being friends?
And again, it’s obvious I can’t convince you of this, but Amity did feel remorse. She admitted remorsefully that she was too weak to be Willow’s friend, called her her friend when standing up to her mother, tried to protect her and outright stated she wanted to stay her friend, and the two have fought side by side, and even hang out now again, with the two happily dancing and jumping together in joy in S3E2.
Of course you can convince me. Just present your evidence. Cite the episodes, scenes and dialogue where Amity shows remorse. I can't find them so show me what I missed. All of the resources you need are right in this wiki right down to plot summaries and complete transcripts.
Amity wasn't remorseful when she said she was too weak to be Willow's friend. She was lying to Willow. She was gaslighting Willow.
Amity: Willow, you were never too weak to be my friend. I was too weak to be yours. I can't take back what I've done, but I can promise you this. [Grabs Skara's invite out of her pocket.] I won't let Boscha and her gang pick on you ever again! [Tugs on Skara's invite.] I'm not actually gonna rip it because it's a real butterfly, but you get the gesture, right? [Pockets the invite, holds out her hand.]
Amity blamed Willow's bullying on Boscha and her gang. That was a lie. It was Amity's gang that was doing the bullying. Amity said nothing about her own bullying of Willow. It was Amity's first act in her first appearance in the show. She said nothing about destroying Willow's mind and necessitating this trip into Willow's subconscious in the first place. The promise she made to never let "Boscha and her gang" pick on her again was broken in Wing it Like Witches. Amity attempted to sabotage Luz' efforts to repair Willow's mind after having to be dragged in there to help. When it was over Amity never offered a word of remorse or regret to Willow for what she put her through. She would never address that issue for the rest of the series. Not with Willow. Not with King. Not with Luz.
Amity did Willow a grievous wrong and she did it for nearly a decade. Until Amity faces up to that history with Willow and takes positive actions to repair that damage her gestures of friendship towards Willow are superficial and performative at best.
Also, I have pointed out numerous canon examples of Amity showing empathy towards others besides Luz, which you have never responded too.
You've given me nothing to respond to. You keep claiming you've presented examples of Amity's empathy but you've never come through. At best they are events you want to interpret as empathy on Amity's part but they don't hold up to scrutiny. Amity responds to no one but Luz. This has been her character since Grom.
forgive me for saying this, but once again you shown you have no regard for other’s opinions. I have tried numerous times to simply agree to disagree but you can’t let it go.
Respecting someone's opinion does not equate to conceding them control of the debate. You do not get to determine what points I discuss and how I discuss them. This is a public forum open to all.
As for agreeing to disagree, that applies to opinions not facts. You've made arguments that are demonstrably against canon like your fairy tale about Luz being the victim of a citywide conspiracy against her. You do not get to claim things that are canonically untrue and then demand that no one challenge you on them. I also remind you that you keep responding to me. If you simply want to agree to disagree, just stop typing.
And Luz was bullied. She was made fun of for her “cheesy” attempts to impress past crushes (S2E8), had encounters with other teens that made her have panic attacks even through indirect human interaction (S2E10), and it was shown that even when her quirks were harmless adults in Gravesfield openingly insulted her in public and without care that her mom was right by them (S3E1)
Luz was not bullied. Being made fun of after doing something embarrassing is not bullying. It's a completely normal experience in any social setting. Friends do it to each other all the time.
Having a panic attack in response to other people being around is not bullying if they're not doing anything directly to you to provoke those panic attacks. We've never seen in the show Luz being attacked or bullied except by Amity in I was a Teenage Abomination and Covention. Every time we've seen Luz suffer socially it was in response to some bad behavior by Luz herself.
Luz was never insulted by the mothers in the park. Luz never heard them. Camila did. And given that Luz was handing dead animal parts out to their children causing them to flee in panic it should be expected that those children's mothers would have something to say about it. So again this was not bullying.
Luz never suffered an unprovoked attack throughout her childhood until she met Amity. She was never shown being bullied and she was never said to have been bullied. The most common reaction Luz provoked among her peers was to send them fleeing in terror. Even when she returned to earth and went back to school no one attacked or bullied her. There were residual effects like the sign but Luz was left in peace.
I get you don’t like the way the series left, but all the hate on this wiki is unnecessary
This isn't hate. This is criticism. This is what you do in a high school or college level literature class.
And I implore you to show self-restraint and respect others views, especially when they try to make peace and simply agre to disagree.
This isn't a war. This is a discussion and it is possible to respect other's views and still challenge them. That's what a debate is. If this is more than you can handle then stop participating and leave this to the professionals.
@Hawas1983 I am referring to your use of curse words. This is a wiki where younger fandom users can operate. The reason you have gotten many others pages in the past is because of your use of inappropriate material, which you know is inappropriate because you have been told multiple times before hand but break the rules of the administrators. I am not sure if your use of curse words is against any rules but I must check.
Also, discussion posts are meant for debates, but not arguments. Debates on these fandoms are for fun, but they always end in full blown arguments when you see ideas you don’t like on this fandom. I have noticed that when people do try to have a discussion with you, you always want your opinions to have the final say even when it is clear that the debate is clearly no longer fun for other users as the discussion gets out of hand.
I am referring to your use of curse words. This is a wiki where younger fandom users can operate. The reason you have gotten many others pages in the past is because of your use of inappropriate material, which you know is inappropriate because you have been told multiple times before hand but break the rules of the administrators. I am not sure if your use of curse words is against any rules but I must check.
You still haven't identified what curse words I am supposed to have used. Not everybody shares the same opinion as to what constitutes a curse word. You're going to have to clarify your objection.
Also, discussion posts are meant for debates, but not arguments. Debates on these fandoms are for fun, but they always end in full blown arguments when you see ideas you don’t like on this fandom. I have noticed that when people do try to have a discussion with you, you always want your opinions to have the final say even when it is clear that the debate is clearly no longer fun for other users as the discussion gets out of hand.
Debates are composed of arguments. The use of arguments in supporting or opposing a position is called argumentation. This is how courtrooms and governments work. This is how business and education work. Knowing how to properly debate a proposition is an essential adult skill and a part of advanced high school and college curricula.
I do not debate ideas I do not like. No one debates ideas they do not like. They and I debate ideas with which we disagree or are incorrect. I put forth my position against which interested parties can express their agreement or disagreement. No one is obligated to participate. No one is obligated to read anything I post or respond to it. I do not want my opinions to have the final say. That's not a debate.
I am presenting my case in order to convince, not force. That's the skill of debate. It is to convince and the ability to convince others of the soundness of a position is how things get done. It's how governments pass laws and people get loans and businesses attract investors. The ability to put forth a convincing argument that convinces others is an essential skill in lawyers, legislators, business executives, educators, etc. Anyone who deals with the public needs debating skills. Unfortunately not everyone has them.
What do you think?